Morgan Housel: Understand & Apply the Psychology of Money to Gain Greater Happiness | Huberman Lab • Podcast Notes

Content
  • Can’t get enough of Andrew Huberman? Check out our member’s only collection packed with his greatest tips 
  • A powerful idea for a lot of things in life: All behavior makes sense with enough information
  • “There is not one right way to manage money, to save it, to spend it. You got to figure out what works for you.”Morgan Housel
  • You should base all your financial decisions on whether you will regret spending or not spending the money
  • Avoid extreme ends of financial planning:
    • Saving more than you need to (the FIRE movement)
    • Spending more than you can (YOLO crypto traders)
      • Both extremes are likely to lead to regret later in life. In fact, more than half of people fall into this category!
  • “Money can’t buy happiness, but it certainly can buffer stress and it can drive outcomes.”Andrew Huberman
  • “Money absolutely can buy happiness, but it’s different for everybody and it’s often a roundabout way.”Morgan Housel
    • What does Morgan Housel mean? Using money as a tool can make you happier but it’s not the thing that makes you happier
    • For example, will a big fancy house make you happier? Probably yes, but the real reason it might is that it makes hosting friends and family easier, or an expensive vacation might make you happier because it allows you to spend quality time with your kids
  • A good formula for a good life: A purpose that is bigger than yourself + independence to make sure you can do it on your own terms
    • Money is not one of those things, but money can help those things
  • If money becomes part of your identity, it becomes dangerous
    • For example, Morgan likes being a writer and enjoys the process, but if he were to say, “I have to keep writing books because I need more money,” then money becomes a psychological liability
  • Health is the last elusive thing that you can’t simply buy. This drives many rich people crazy
  • Freedom isn’t doing nothing; it’s doing things on your own terms
  • Independence is the highest tool money can buy. “Every dollar you don’t spend is money that you are actually spending on independence.”Morgan Housel
  • Aging offers a choice: Become an elder who helps others or become elderly, disintegrating over time
  • The happiest states in the U.S. are typically in the Midwest, where life is less competitive compared to cities like Los Angeles or New York
  • Spending money is an art, not a science—it’s subjective, personal, and often contradictory
  • In this episode, Huberman and Housel (@morganhousel) discuss why people tend to overspend or oversave, common financial mistakes, and how to use money as a tool for security, freedom, and purpose
  • Host: Andrew Huberman (@hubermanlab)   
  • No one is really that crazy with how they spend or save their money because it makes sense to them at that moment
  • A powerful idea for a lot of things in life: All behavior makes sense with enough information
  • “There is not one right way to manage money, to save it, to spend it. You got to figure out what works for you.”Morgan Housel
  • “The trait that you need to do well with money over time, no matter who you are, is a well-calibrated sense of your future regret.”Daniel Kahneman
  • You should base all your financial decisions on whether you will regret spending or not spending the money
  • Avoid extreme ends of financial planning:
    • Saving more than you need to (the FIRE movement)
    • Spending more than you can (YOLO crypto traders)
      • Both extremes are likely to lead to regret later in life. In fact, more than half of people fall into this category!
  • Managing money in a way that’s actually going to make you happier and reduce your regret is way harder than earning it and accumulating it over time
  • For a lot of people, the availability of credit is giving them a false sense of hope that money will solve their problems
  • “Money can’t buy happiness, but it certainly can buffer stress and it can drive outcomes.”Andrew Huberman
  • “Money absolutely can buy happiness, but it’s different for everybody and it’s often a roundabout way.”Morgan Housel
  • Using money as a tool can make you happier but it’s not the thing that makes you happier
    • For example, will a big fancy house make you happier? Probably yes, but the real reason it might is that it makes hosting friends and family easier, or an expensive vacation might make you happier because it allows you to spend quality time with your kids
  • What really makes people happy at their core is some sense of purpose
  • A good formula for a good life: A purpose that is bigger than yourself + independence to make sure you can do it on your own terms
    • Money is not one of those things, but money can help those things
  • In “30 Lessons for Living”, Karl Pillemer interviewed 1,000 elderly people. None said, “I wish I earned more money,” but almost everyone wished they had spent more time with friends and family
  • “If I knew what I know now and I could do life over again, I would make as much money as I could, retire at age 35, and plant trees and write poetry.”Felix Dennis
  • If money becomes part of your identity, it becomes dangerous
    • For example, Morgan likes being a writer and enjoys the process, but if he were to say, “I have to keep writing books because I need more money,” then money becomes a psychological liability
  • At that point, money controls you, and your desire for more grows, leading to addiction
  • Morgan’s definition of addiction: “Addiction is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure and safety.”
  • Here, it’s not about making more money to enjoy things more, but rather about making money to avoid the pain of feeling vulnerable
  • For many, that pain is social. They might fear not climbing the social ladder high enough, seeing others earn more, or feeling like their neighbors have bigger houses. This path is a game you cannot win
  • This game of comparison grows as people accumulate more wealth
  • Billionaires are likely to compare themselves to other billionaires
  • The irony is that some of the richest people are the most insecure about their money
  • “All forms of addiction are fundamentally a fear of death.”Andrew Huberman
  • Money can buy better healthcare, but it cannot buy more years of your life, except by the things you are willing not to do and do behaviorally
  • You still have to exercise, get your sleep, and avoid certain things
  • Morgan finds it interesting, especially when you look back 50 or even 100 years ago when wealthier people did less physical labor
    • Now, the wealthiest are doing more physical labor to try and live longer
  • Health is the last elusive thing that you can’t simply buy. This drives many rich people crazy
  • The one thing you want more than anything in life is what you want and cannot have. This is what people chase with all their effort—things they can’t have
  • Fame restricts your freedom, it does not increase it
  • “You want to be rich and anonymous, not poor and famous.”Naval
  • Fame brings social debt, where the money you have changes how others perceive you, and may even affect how you see yourself
  • Fame is the ultimate social debt. For many, their social debt from fame is greater than the money they made from what made them famous
  • “You should write your obituary, and then try to figure out how to live up to it.”Warren Buffett
  • David Brooks distinguishes between resume virtues (achievements like money, degrees) and eulogy virtues (qualities like being a good parent or friend)
  • Most people aspire to eulogy virtues but spend their time chasing resume virtues, thinking that material success will lead to what they truly value
  • We’re not wired for exponential thinking, and that’s why even when you show people the numbers, like investing a small amount now to retire with a million dollars, it doesn’t seem right
  • Charlie Munger said that when teaching finance to young people, some get it instantly, others never do
  • Warren Buffett said the iron rule of math is only 1% of people can end up in the top 1%. It’s not easy for most people to save and invest for 50 years
  • Financial education can teach people what’s possible, but it’s not about math—it’s about behavior
    • We know the dangers of smoking or processed foods, but people still do it because it’s a behavioral issue, not an intelligence one
  • In an ideal world, one can make a living doing something they enjoy, with 75% of activities being pleasurable, 15% neutral, and the rest punishing
  • Jeff Bezos said if you can enjoy half of your work, that’s pretty good
  • “Dopamine that is not preceded by effort is very dangerous.”Andrew Huberman
  • A lottery winner who gets a lot of dopamine without effort doesn’t feel as good because there’s no effort involved
  • In contrast, spending unstructured time with your kids might feel effortless, but it’s still rewarding and enriching
  • There are different forms of pleasure, but only one path for motivation: dopamine
  • The best part of a trip is not the event itself, but the time spent together—flying, renting a car, going to dinner—those moments create lasting memories
  • It’s not the destination but the journey and the experience with others that matters
  • Freedom isn’t doing nothing; it’s doing things on your own terms
  • Money provides the flexibility to make choices: Work where you want, live where you want, take a different job, or retire when you want
  • Independence is the highest tool money can buy
  • Independence comes from what you don’t spend
    • The car you didn’t buy, the house you didn’t buy, and the money saved create independence
  • “Every dollar you don’t spend is money that you are actually spending on independence.”Morgan Housel
  • In psychology, the peak-end rule explains how people remember experiences based largely on how they end
    • Leaving a career on your own terms leads to a positive view, even if the career wasn’t ideal
    • Being forced out leaves a lasting negative impression
  • Maximizing independence and autonomy in any career is vital
  • People fear not having control, both in life and at the end of their careers
  • Most aren’t afraid of death itself but fear death not on their own terms, where they can’t say goodbye
  • Ray Dalio’s life stages:
    • First third: Learning how to function in the world
    • Middle third: Acquiring resources to care for yourself and loved ones
    • Final third: Giving back knowledge and wealth to future generations
  • Aging offers a choice: Become an elder who helps others or become elderly, disintegrating over time
  • Money is easy to measure, so people put more effort into making it, even at the expense of relationships and health
  • For example, figuring out how to increase your income by 10% is straightforward, but how do you measure getting your kids to love you 10% more? It’s hard, so people focus on the tangible instead
  • Dogs are always in the moment
    • Dogs give love freely, live in the moment, and just enjoy what they’re doing, unlike humans who often worry about the past or dream about the future
  • Big cities like Los Angeles and New York foster environments where people wake up feeling inadequate, thinking they need to chase what others have
    • This is great for society—it drives new technologies, innovation, and growth—but it’s tough for individuals
  • The happiest states in the U.S. are typically in the Midwest, where life is less competitive compared to cities like Los Angeles or New York
  • Society progresses when there’s a sense of urgency or stress:
    • The 1930s Great Depression forced businesses to innovate to survive, creating assembly lines, grocery stores, and laundromats
    • World War II drove advancements in nuclear energy, radar, and jets because of the urgent need to win
  • Companies like Sears, IBM, Intel, and Boeing declined because they got comfortable and stopped innovating
  • When there’s no pressure to improve, complacency sets in, and what once made them great slips away
  • Spending money is an art, not a science—it’s subjective, personal, and often contradictory
  • Wealthier societies have fewer children because expectations for providing for children go up
  • Parents don’t need formal lessons; kids learn through observation
  • Children absorb financial habits and attitudes from their parents’ behavior, even indirectly (e.g., hearing about raises or shopping decisions)
  • Leading by example is more effective than trying to explicitly teach kids financial concepts
  • “The only thing you can do is lead by example with people.”Morgan Housel

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Summary
In a recent discussion, Andrew Huberman and Morgan Housel explore the complexities of financial behavior, emphasizing that all spending and saving decisions make sense when viewed through the lens of personal context. They argue against extreme financial practices, such as excessive saving or reckless spending, which often lead to regret. Housel suggests that money can enhance happiness indirectly by facilitating experiences that foster connections, like hosting friends or family vacations. They highlight the importance of having a purpose greater than oneself and maintaining independence, with money serving as a tool to achieve these goals. The conversation also touches on the dangers of allowing money to define one's identity, leading to addiction and insecurity. Huberman notes that while money can improve health outcomes, it cannot buy longevity, underscoring the importance of lifestyle choices. They conclude that true fulfillment comes from pursuing eulogy virtues—qualities that matter in the long run—rather than resume virtues, which focus on material success. Ultimately, financial education is less about math and more about understanding behavior, with the goal of achieving a balanced, meaningful life.